Response: Lintels, Purple Martins, etc.

18 Responses to “Response: Lintels, Purple Martins, etc.”

1. Kyle on June 16th, 2007 3:04 am

   Sorry, but I should have written my comment on evolution differently but I do know about Darwin’s other books and in fact I have read many of his writings that were never complete. I would like to point this out however and this is pointed out in the introduction of The Descent of Man:

   “This work contains hardly any original facts in regard to man; but as the conclusions at which I arrived, after drawing up a rough draft, appeared to me interesting, I thought that they might interest others. It has often and confidently been asserted, that man’s origin can never be known: but ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”

   I think Darwin’s modesty is often overlooked and he is misquoted for his thoughts. I am sorry about not putting it into more of this context before. But that is what I mean by misquoted. He often states it to be theory not necessarily fact.

   As for Webster saying:

   “Secondly, he thinks that sorting and corruption of existing genes, which he calls evolution, is the same process that which allegedly produced men from molecules, which is what people usually mean when they talk about evolution. The same word is used, but the concepts are not the same. It is not even true that they are both “parts of evolution”, they are changes in opposite directions. The examples he gives are cases of information loss or neutrality; the theory he promotes requires vast gains of information. You really can’t make money by losing a little on every sale”

   I disagree. In the National Geographic for instance said:

   About 12,000 years ago hunter-gatherers in what is now Israel placed a body in a grave with its hand cradling a pup. Whether it was a dog or a wolf can’t be known. Either way, the burial is among the earliest fossil evidence of the dog’s domestication. Scientists know the process was under way by about 14,000 years ago but do not agree on why. Some argue that humans adopted wolf pups and that natural selection favored those less aggressive and better at begging for food. Others say dogs domesticated themselves by adapting to a new niche—human refuse dumps. Scavenging canids that were less likely to flee from people survived in this niche, and succeeding generations became increasingly tame. According to biologist Raymond Coppinger: “All that was selected for was that one trait—the ability to eat in proximity to people.”

   At the molecular level not much changed at all: The DNA makeup of wolves and dogs is almost identical.

   The dog evolved in the company of humans and cannot exist without them. Even the vast majority living “wild” as village scavengers depend on proximity to humans. That relationship has become so intimate that dogs are often viewed as creatures apart, writes biologist James Serpell. “The domestic dog exists precariously in the no-man’s-land between the human and nonhuman . . . neither person nor beast.” The ancients saw dogs as messengers between the living and the dead. Today dogs are often used in experiments that might threaten human lives.

   You can read the rest on their website.

   Also read about the Domestication process of plants under a study done by Oxford at http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/mcm040v1

   The list can go on and on only building up more proof. The so called “loss of information or neutrality” is nothing but a failed assumption, on your part, by not looking into a deeper meaning and better research.

   As for “You really can’t make money by losing a little on every sale” I would suggest finding your faults, taxing, and restructuring so you may continue to make money. But I do not see your point?

   As a Christian I see no problem in believing in certain parts of evolution and not believing in other parts.

   Note: The earth is in no way 6000yrs old. Noah did not fit dinosaurs on the ark. How would you explain cave men? What about people before 6000 yrs ago? Read books like the history of the Jews and you will even find references of lost civilizations before them dating back 10000 B.C. Explain the ice ages, Radiocarbon dating, population growths, and so much more.

   I end with this; God did it all but the question is how did he do it?

2. Maryjane on June 16th, 2007 11:07 pm

   Kyle,
   You seem to have read a great deal about Darwin, but have you read material that covers the creationist point of view? Modern creation science has developed very good responses to many of the questions that you asked (fitting dinosaurs on the ark, radiocarbon dating, etc.). Creationists don’t claim to have all the answers, but they are diligently looking for them, using good *scientific* methods, but beginning with quite a different set of presuppositions than those of evolutionary scientists!

   May I also suggest that your example concerning the adaptations of dogs is not an example of true macro-evolution, but rather it demonstrates natural selection/adaptation. Macro-evolution (Darwin’s theory) demands that one creature changes, or evolves, into another, completely different creature. The fossil record does not support macro-evolution.

3. Sally Barbour on June 17th, 2007 1:26 pm

   Somehow I missed the original comment on the bird, but I can tell you the picture on the website is not a Purple Martin. At least not a North Carolina purple martin. Our purple martins are a solid shiny black so that when the light hits them, they glisten sometimes a deep purple, hence the name. What you have in the picture looks like some type of swallow althouth it would be helpful to see its tail for further identification. And doesn’t that make your point about the magnificant diversity of our creative God. The creation truly does “declare the glories” of our God.

4. James on June 17th, 2007 8:39 pm

   I agree. Evolution has its points and as a Christian I believe in some parts and disagree wth other parts of evolution as well.

   Domestication is a form of evolution by the way. Sure there are differences but still it is a form of evolution.

   As for the earth being 6000 yrs old I say no as well. Dinosaurs and man were never together and do not use job as an example because there is a huge misinterpretation is meanings. The Hebrew version is always the best version to read and to get the correct meanings.

5. Kyle on June 19th, 2007 3:14 pm

   Response to Maryjane on the creationist point of view:

   I have studied the creationist point of view especially being that I am a Christian. I think creationism has flaws that I cannot merely overlook.

   Intelligent Design is a bit down more my alley of thinking because I absolutely know God created everything and just to add Jesus is the son of God and God incarnate. I felt lead to say that last part because without Jesus there is no life. But back to intelligent design, I like a lot of the people who back this type of thinking but again I have my arguments with some of their other ideas.

   It is not that I disagree with Creationism or Intelligent design on the involvement of God or anything of that sort. But my main problem with creationism is the time frames of people, dinosaurs, cave men, and etc. As for intelligent design I feel no reason to point out my arguments with them but I will state that ID thinkers are open to evolution.

   I would like to put a statement from my introduction of my new book of the many books I am currently writing on here. Here is a little excerpt:

   Written by E. Kyle Richey

   “By George, a Christian looking at evolution that is preposterous but if it be true then let this fad fade away!”

   I have no idea if anyone actually said that but I do know many Christians think it.

   The whole notion that possibly even a fraction of evolution be true is considered taboo by not just Christians but from other religions as well. I mean that by no way of trying to offend anyone but simple stating the facts. Does this make religion wrong or ignorant? I’d say no, it does not.

   God is a matter of faith and observation. Science is a matter of faith and observation. I think God and Science go hand to hand but I don’t expect an open welcoming from either most scientist or religious leaders on the that idea.
   - End of statement

   I am currently studying to be an Economist and Political scientist but my goal is to go into politics becoming a senator and later run for president. My studies include Political studies, world and American history, economics, philosophy, and etc. But my life hobby is the study of natural science and life including Sociology, Psychology, and natural science courses.
   PS: Allowing us to edit our responses would be easier so that way all you have to do is confirm our edits.

6. Dee Brown on June 19th, 2007 5:42 pm

   Soli Deo Gloria!
   I saw the wonderful little bird in your birdhouse. To me it appears to be a Tree Swallow. We have many of them and they nest in most of our nest boxes. They are white on the underside and iridescent green on the back. Indeed they do swoop down and around; catching the insects for themselves or their young. If you get too close to the nest, you will find them swooping down very close to your head. In other words, ‘protective zone’; stay away!
   Enjoy! God did some amazing creations in the birds. Songs at daybreak,mating songs, songs for babies; ah yes, the birds do it well. We could learn from them as to the Master’s plan!
   In Christ, Dee

7. Jeff B on June 20th, 2007 10:16 am

   Kyle,

   You talk about Intelligent Design being “a bit down more my alley of thinking”. May I suggest that you are letting your thinking affect the Bible instead of the Bible affect your thinking. It is a dangerous road to start making the Bible fit your views instead of your views fit the Bible.

   There also seems to be confusion by both Kyle and James about the difference between Micro and Macro evolution. Yes they both have the word evolution in them, but that is about the only similarity. Micro evolution is what the domestication of dogs and breeding is. It uses information that is already in the plant or animal, think of it as a sorting process. Macro evolution, a fish, to a frog, to a dog, would require new information that is not present to be somehow generated.

   Soli Deo Gloria!

8. Kyle on June 21st, 2007 11:00 pm

   N.I.C.E Response to Jeff B

   You said: May I suggest that you are letting your thinking affect the Bible instead of the Bible affect your thinking. It is a dangerous road to start making the Bible fit your views instead of your views fit the Bible.

   So am I the wrong type of thinking Christian? I have been a Christian since I was thirteen and have been going to church all my life. I read the bible and go to bible studies. I try to live my life for Christ. Now you say that I have chosen my thinking over the bibles. I have gone to private school all my life practically and have studied under Nazarene, Baptist, and Catholic doctrines. I am now a non-denominational Christian in a very good non-denominational church. So simply because I do not believe the literal six days of creation story I am letting my view conflict with Gods?

   Read Job in the bible and you can find the words like leviathan, dragon, sea creature, and etc. Often, this is the proof people use for man walking amongst dinosaurs. Let me read you the actual word used in the bible coming from the Hebrew version, by the way James is my best friend and a messianic Jew, and this is also backed by the Richards Complete Bible Dictionary: The King James Version uses the word Dragon for two Hebrew words. The first, tan, is actually a jackal, as in modern English versions. The second, tannin, refers to some large water creature. The meaning is often related to a crocodile.

   Now, as for the literal meaning of the 7 days in the book of Genesis the Jews related this as periods of time, i.e. one day to God is a thousand years to man. But many agree that it could be more time or less time as to when the earth was created but nobody really knows.

   Does this make either the Christians who believe in the absolute meaning of creation wrong or the ones who do not believe in the absolute meaning of creation wrong? No, is the answer to the question, nobody is wrong because we all live for Christ.

   I believe in every other literal word in the Bible but I am just not sure about the literal six days of creation or more on the actual time frames.

   Also, I know the difference between Micro and Macro- evolution thank you. In fact a discussion was just held on this issue between friends and this was the letter sent out:

   Tyrannosaurus Rex.

   Over 30 specimens of this dinosaur have been found to date. All of the adult specimans found thus far are have identical dimensions (minus a couple juveniles in the bunch).

   My question is this:

   If evolution holds true in its claim of all creatures evolving on earth, how come all of the fossil specimans that have been found located in sporadic regions across North America are identical? Where are the specimans that supposedly evolved into this creature known as the T-Rex? What are the odds of finding 30+ of these with no variation between species? In a time period spanning millions of years there should be countless “links” leading up to the evolution of this giant. How come every single one that we’ve discovered is the same- size and dimensionally proportionate to one another?

   How about the Brontasaurus? Stegasaurus? Actually this very same principal of logic holds true and can be applied to every fossilized dinosaur/animal found in history or alive today.

   It appears to me the fossil record simply does not support the theory of evolution. There are no “links” that i know of supporting it.

   I bolded the above to say this: that’s wrong. There are several species of dinosaurs similar to T rex that are, nonetheless, biologically distinct. Look up Tyrannosaurus bataar, Alioramus and Tarbosaurus. There is also a debate about N. lancensis since it exhibits different jaw structure and number of teeth than a standard T rex. So, I am not sure what point you think you are making.

   My point I’m attempting to make is that the theory of evolution has huge holes in it’s theory to be considered “factually correct” as far as life evolving from one form to another. Enough so to where i believe it shouldn’t be taught to my children in school as such. I just randomly chose the T-Rex as an example for the millions of other species previously or presently in existence with no links (which there should be tens of millions in existence) showing them evolving from one species to another.

   Even if there’s a remote possibility of those other dinosaurs you mentioned are in fact, links leading to or from what is presently called a T-Rex, it still would only be considered micro-evolution (within it’s own species). I’d like someone to show me indisputable proof of a biological chain from one species to another, say for instance a species of a fish to a T-Rex.

   Only then you may have a believer.

   - End of letter

   We all agreed and stated that the evidence, i.e. fossils, was not there to prove Macro-Evolution. This was never a dispute for me or any of my other Christian and even some non- Christian friends who do believe in parts of evolution.

   We only state that parts of evolution is plausible not fact.

   I love having these discussions and I am glad people respond to my comments so vigorously but please do not insult my faith.

   I would like to take the time to thank Dr. Del Tackett for letting us use his blog to comment and for him to take the time to write a blog.
   I have been enjoying the Truth Project at our church and I hope to be able to go to one of your conferences one day. Thank you Doctor and keep up this great program.

9. John S on June 22nd, 2007 1:26 pm

   All of the other empirical arguements aside (evidence can be misleading and we tend to see what we want to see), I’d like to present the reason why I cannot accept the theory of Evolution.

   Simply, in order for Evolution to take place, the processes of death would have had to exist for a long period of time before Man as we know him would ever have come on the scene. This contradicts every fiber of God’s revelation to us, that Man’s decision to attempt to establish reality apart from God’s parameters is what led to the miserable state of the world around us.

   Did God create Death as part of His original system(s)? It’s hard to imagine a world without death and decay, but it’s also hard to imagine another certain world with death and decay.

   I see the theory of Evolution and the revelation of the Scriptures as mutually exclusive.

10. Mario on June 22nd, 2007 1:58 pm

    Many Christians who say they believe in at least some parts of evolutionary theory do so because they cannot reconcile a date of creation of 4004 BC with scientific discoveries, especially in archaeology. This date was determined by archbishop James Usher (1581–1656). Unfortunately his approach to dating Biblical events does not agree with Biblical or archaeological evidence.

    An alternative approach to Biblical dating was set forth by Harold Camping in a booklet “The Biblical Calendar of History” published in 1981 by Family Stations, Inc. Camping’s approach is to look at the list of patriarchs as a patriarchal calendar where descendants are not literal sons, unless the phrase “called his name” is used instead of “begat”, but are born the year the patriarch died. Thus all the years of a patriarch would make up the calendar for his time.

    As an example in Genesis 15:13-16 a prophecy is given to Abraham that his descendants would be oppressed 400 years in a land that was not theirs, and that they would return to their own land in the fourth generation. Exodus 12: 40,41 states that the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt for 430 years. Here is a problem with Usher’s chronology, because it has the children of Israel in Egypt for only 215 years.

    Using Camping’s chronology Levi entered Egypt when he was 60 and died when he was 137, so he spent 77 years in Egypt. Kohath was born the year Levi died and also lived 137 years. Amram was born the year Kohath died and lived 133 years. Finally Aaron was born the year Amram died and left Egypt when he was 83. Adding 77 and 137 and 133 and 83 together the total is 430 years, and Aaron is the fourth generation.

    The date of creation using Camping’s method is 11013 BC. With this as a starting date events in Genesis also line up with archaeological evidence.

    Other dates: The Flood – 4990 BC; Tower of Babel – 3153-2914 BC; Abram entered Canaan – 2092 BC; Jacob’s family arrives in Egypt – 1877 BC; Exodus from Egypt – 1447 BC.

11. Dwight DePalmer on June 23rd, 2007 8:25 pm

    Kyle,

    A thinking Christian is a very good thing. As a Christian parent, I am very sensitive to the risk of my children’s faith fading into the myths of childhood along with the tooth fairy or Easter bunny when they come of age. Literal emphasis of the details of stories in the Bible, over the very Truth of God’s message in those same passages, is an exercise in missing the point.

    A good number of years ago my wife bought me a copy of The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder. Give it a read. I think you’ll enjoy it. It is not a Christian book per se, but it will bend your noodle in the areas of quantum physics and the six days of creation.

    Ultimately, it is the universals as Del would say, that drive our search for Truth. Darwin believed in God. Man’s understanding of God and his involvement with creation is the very dynamic which set him on his quest, to find an alternate mechanism, which explained the natural world as the truth of science was uncovering it (see Darwin’s God: Evolution and the Problem of Evil by Cornelius G. Hunter).

    Over the years I have come to believe that the more intelligence one possesses, the harder it can be to relate to your Maker, or even admit you have one. For me, I am increasingly aware that understanding Him is a struggle of my nature. Andrew Jukes put it best when he said, “Man has hard thoughts on God, and high thoughts on himself… We would not pass a bag of money, if we might have it, because we could get some pleasure from it; but we can pass by God, morning, noon and night, for we expect no good or pleasure from Him.”

    Andrew lived in Darwin’s day. He understood my nature then, more than my biology could ever tell you.

    D!

12. Jeff B on June 25th, 2007 11:29 am

    Kyle,

    First, my sincere apologies if you thought I was insulting your faith. My eloquence appears to be very lacking.

    There is, has been, and will continue to be debate about the meaning of certain words. There are arguments on both sides. In the end I would agree that it does not make either side more or less Christian. The point I was trying to make (apparently not very well) was that once you start doubting one portion of scripture it opens the door to doubt others. If the very first chapter in the Bible is not literal, what else may not be literal?

    I believe the Bible was not written to be complicated, at least on the important matters (there are obviously some things we will never be able to comprehend). Scripture tends to repeat things that are important over and over again so that even simple people like me can get it. When it keeps repeating things like; And the evening and the morning were the first, second, third, etc day, I believe it means what it says. It also does not make sense to me that God would rest on the seventh day if that really meant thousands of years.

    We probably will not settle the issue on this blog, but if you feel that I am missing something please feel free to respond. After all, in the end we are all after the same thing THE TRUTH.

13. Kyle on June 25th, 2007 4:12 pm

    Alright, I will just answer each person down the row.

    Response to John S:

    I sort of agree with you. If you look at evolution as a whole and in the mind set of an absolute evolutionist then you end up with a world with no correlation with God. But as you said yourself, “Did God create Death as part of His original system(s)?” We can only speculate.

    All I am really doing is taking apart evolution and seeing if any pieces could be true and if any can fit with the Bible or Gods doing. God is almighty and anything is possible.

    What I am not trying to do is make evolution forcibly relevant with the Bible. It is not that I am trying to completely prove or disprove evolution but simply dissect it and give evolution another look from another point of view.

    Response to Mario:

    You said: “The date of creation using Camping’s method is 11013 BC. With this as a starting date events in Genesis also line up with archaeological evidence.”
    I find this conclusion more acceptable but there is still much to be answered. I still think the earth is very old.

    However, I have thought for awhile that at least a creationist should accept the earth being 10,000 yrs old. But don’t expect me to simply state any of these dates to be fact.
    Keep it up though and hey the age of the earth is the least of our problems right?

    Response to Dwight DePalmer:

    Thank you for the books Amazon.com here I come!

    I would like to look at something you said: “Over the years I have come to believe that the more intelligence one possesses, the harder it can be to relate to your Maker, or even admit you have one. For me, I am increasingly aware that understanding Him is a struggle of my nature.”

    I have heard this before and agree for the most part but for me it is different. It is different for two reasons. First, the more I realize how complex and intelligent the universe, earth, animals, plants, and humans really are the more amazed and faithful I become towards God. As a Christian, Christ only cements my faith without any knowledge really needed for my Lord has amazed me beyond all levels and I know Jesus is Lord. Second, I believe in all my Heart God wants me to take this journey of understanding and research. I am going to be a politician but may be this has something to do with that? My destiny is in Gods hands I follow wherever he tells me, most of the time, but we all do stray off of our paths at times. I can tell you this however that this current path is what he wishes me to follow. We all play the part of Job at one time or another.

    Response to Jeff B:

    No need to apologize but thank you.

    The truth will be reviled one day won’t it? Till that day I will seek to understand HIM completely.

    Conclusion:

    Follow the path you feel God wishes you to go down and voice your beliefs for him but remember do not misrepresent God or his word. We are all seekers and that is a good thing. Seek the Lord and you will find HIM!

14. Kyle on June 26th, 2007 12:55 pm

    This is just to add on some information for people who might want to look up what we have be discussing including books and websites.

    Website:

    http://www.allaboutscience.org/

    http://trueorigin.org/

    http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html#creationism

    Books:

    The Edge of Evolution by Michael J. Behe

    Darwin’s Black Box by Michael J. Behe

    The Best American Science Writing 2006 Edit by Atul Gawande

    A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson -Christian

    But also get A history of the Jews 5th Edition by Abram Leon Sachar - Jewish Both are very good for contrasting.

    and Richards Complete Bible Dictionary.

    Just to name a few.

    PS: Reluctantly I give you

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/

    Just to be a bit more fair.

15. Steve Neal on June 28th, 2007 11:31 am

    Dr Tackett, in regards to your picture about the Bird, I believe that it’s a Barn Swallow from the picture, Purple martins prefer small colonies away from structures. Both are excellent fliers.

16. Steve Neal on June 28th, 2007 11:53 am

    In regard to the evolution debate, I think in Dr Tacketts the Truth Project there is a young girl who explains the factors necessary for blood to clot. If evolution took thousands of years and many processes to happen how come there is any life at all on the face of the earth. If you scraped youself you would bleed to death, if you bumped yourself you would bleed to death internally etc. Our God says what He means and means what He says! The book may have been written by men “but it was God Breathed”, guided by the spirit, as one brother stated if one thing in the Bible isn’t true then throw out the baby with the bath water because how can you possibly trust anything else it says. May God enlighten you in your searching, and remember you are engaged in a spiritual battle, if Satan can fool you he will, just as he did Eve in the Garden, That’s where death came in, a result of sin! Mine and yours!

    “To serve the living God, is our highest calling and should be our greatest pleasure.”

17. Kyle on June 28th, 2007 2:51 pm

    Response to Steve Neal

    I agree. I do not respond, for the most part, to disagree with people here. I will state completely what has been my base this whole time and I quote myself:

    “Evolution as a whole is wrong. But, take apart evolution and disregard the incorrect, immoral, and scientifically proven wrong pieces and you still have parts of evolution standing high and mighty. You do this by reading the Bible (multiple versions) and understanding God’s word and study other theologian’s works, understand the differences between mutation and evolution, look at the substantial evidence and figure out what is truly relevant of that evidence but at the same time discover if that relevance is truly important or common expectation, read other scientific works on evolution and the ideas surrounding it, read counter Darwin books, read Darwin, go back to the Bible, and conclude.”

    The research on evolution and the work I have put into it means very little to me and what I mean by that is these works are not my life works. God has many things in stored for me but as of right now this is something he wants me to do. There is no longer any spiritual battle going on here for me because that ended a long time ago but now this is a journey that God wants me to take. Satan may try to deceive me but he has lost this battle for my research is what God wants be to take and show even more then ever HE is the creator.

    I cannot say this enough, I am a Christian and just because I say the word evolution that does not mean I am trying to spread the lies of evolution but simply show that some parts have basis and are relevant. So do not expect me to say that evolution is true but you can expect me to say parts of evolution are viable and that the ideas adjoining evolution are even more viable but all are not true or even fact.

    Truths and Facts are two different standards. A list of facts does not always make a truth but truth is always made up of facts.

    I could go on but I hope you understand a little better.

18. Steve Neal on June 29th, 2007 9:27 am

    Kyle, a very concise and thoughtful reply, Thank You, I like you wish only that truth be revealed, although I am not a researcher, I am called to be a voice, a watchman, a disiple. It sounds as if you certainly do search the scriptures.
    Thank You for the websites, have enjoyed All about Science and have viewed the Priveledged Planet previously, very excited to gather more information which is relevant to the “battle.”
    P.S. While you may be a mature Christian the “spiritual Battle is never over until we leave, and are safely ensconced in Heaven. Look at the Apostles and great men throughout history all struggled and all failed at some point or another. It’s not because we want to but because we do struggle againt the flesh. God Be with you!!!

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